| Archive for 2dornot2dforum.myfastforum.org A place to discuss all issues relating to traditional 2D animation in a digital world. |
| DavidN |
What tools are you using ?Decided this would be a good topic , playing off a comment made by "Stickman" over on the thread about Phil Nibbelink's "Romeo & Juliet" :
So, good question: what is everyone using to do 2-D animation digitally ? My guess is that everyone has probably switched to digital ink & paint (Digicel, Animo, etc.) at the very least , though if anyone is still working on cels I'd be interested to hear about it . I'm a traditional pencil and paper guy. That's what I prefer to animate with and nothing beats it for sensitivity and expressiveness , in my opinion. However, I've retrained to draw on Wacom tablets , both the Intous 3 , as well as the amazing Cintiq 21UX. (I have an Intous at home, the Cintiq at work courtesy of my employer; someday I hope to have a Cintiq for my home studio , too) . I mostly work with Mirage and am also learning to use Flash. I've messed around with various other softwares , such as ToonBoom . I think I like Mirage because it duplicates the feel of drawing on paper (especially when used in conjunction with the Cintiq) . At work we mounted the Cintiqs into traditional animation desks, so we feel right at home . Yes, the Cintiq comes with a rotating stand , but for me having it mounted in a desk is an added ergonomic benefit and the familiarity of the set-up is a comfort as I retrain myself to work paperless (I miss flipping and rolling the drawings the most ! Using the touchstrip on the Cintiq or a Powermate wheel to "scrub" quickly back-and-forth through the drawings on the timeline as a simulated sort of "flipping" just isn't the same) . But it has other advantages that I am learning to love . 
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| idragosani |
I'm using several different tools, both commercial and open source and use both Windows and Linux for my production ... I'm still relatively inexperienced so I am still exploring what works for me. Right now, I am focusing on traditional cel animation, drawn by hand (my drawing skills are a little rusty, so I am giving myself a quick crash course in pencil technique). I'd like to move to using a Cintiq tablet but that is probably further down the road -- trying to stay within a tight budget right now
For inking and coloring, I am moving things onto a laptop with a desktop scanner, and using Flipbook and two open source graphics applications called The Gimp and Cinepaint. The Gimp has an add-on tool called Gimp Animation Package which is good for compositing. Cinepaint works well for highresolution images scanned from film (it works in 16bpp color, as opposed to the typical 8bpp color most applications do). I'm also using a stoyboarding package called BoardMaster (apparently the company has gone out of business, but you can find the software still for about $40) -- it's useful for creating animatics also. For vector animation, I am using Anime Studio Pro (formerly known as Moho, which I still use on Linux since AS Pro isn't yet available for Linux). I do some stuff with 3D, primarily with a free Renderman renderer called Aqsis, and modelling with Blender and K-3D (both also open source). I'd like to use Maya but the full version is a bit too pricey for me right now. 
Also got a small music studio in my basement for audio production. |
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| MichaelS |
ToolsI do storyboards on pencil & paper and clean up & finish in Photoshop.My animation is done on paper, scanned and touched up in Photoshop. After Effects is used to put the art together and make QT movies. It's edited in Final Cut Pro. I resist all the other programs out there. It takes too long to learn them properly. I don't feel I fully get Photoshop after ten years of working with it; why try to learn another program? I particularly do not like Flash - the anti-animation program. Saying that, the only one that interests me is Mirage. But the time factor keeps me away from it. Too much time is spent learning and reworking with the computer. I feel a lot of the energy is lost in it, and the possibility of oddly positive errors is all but eliminated. That's not good.[/b] |
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| idragosani |
Re: Tools
One reason I like Digicel Flipbook, it's very simple (even simpler than MS Paint, in some ways), so you can focus on the artwork rather than the technical details of the software. |
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| DavidN |
Re: Tools
I'm with you on that , Michael. This is why I'm trying to settle on one program and stick with it , in my case Mirage. It allows me to go digital, not having to spend time on scanning, but still feels like hand-drawn because it is hand-drawn, just not on paper. However, at the end of the day if I'm given a choice I'd prefer to keep working on paper. What you said about the amount of time and energy frittered away on getting up to speed with new software all the time is true. It's difficult enough just to draw and animate successfully, without having to constantly learn a new set of tools. The only reason I'm dealing with Flash right now is because almost all the job listings I read for 2-D animators require Flash skills. One encouraging thing I heard recently from a friend at Disney is that John Lasseter has made it known that he has no interest in forcing traditional animators to draw on digital tablets as hand-drawn animation makes a comeback at Disney (how very odd to read that phrase: "hand-drawn makes a comeback at Disney" !) . Apparently Disney is in fact continuing to develop a paperless system of their own , which is something I heard about 8 or 9 years ago while I was still at Disney's though I never got to see the prototype , but from the description it sounded very similar to the Wacom Cintiq tablet. But the word is that Lasseter has said that if an animator prefers to work with pencil on paper that's ok. John seems to be a both/and kind of guy , not an either/or . |
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| RMills |
David as you know I use Mirage. I've been working with the Bauhaus people to bring new features into future software from them. Using it on a tablet PC is fantastic and I find that I'm able to get the results I want. Some of the new tools coming up from Bauhaus will be nice. Some of them I know you've seen previews of on their site. I teach Mirage classes all the time in the LA area. I find Mirage is a great tool for both individual animators and studios. One of the things I like is it's basically a full animation studio in one piece of software. Anyhow I've got a lot of new stuff to put up on my blog starting this week about using Mirage for my film so check it out. 
http://the-plausible-impossible.blogspot.com |
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| artmaestro |
Wow. Outstanding Blog RMills. Really cool information - especially the Mirage and production info. Have a good one and thanks for keeping me inspired. |
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| 2Dee |
Hi guys!
Nice to meet you all here 2d animators. My background is traditional animator whose using pencil and paper. But now I'm working for the company that use Toon Boom Harmony. So it became paperless. But I wonder how is Mirage compare to Toon Boom Harmony? I mean the workflow and other things? I'm interested in Mirage because of it's prize that relatively more economic than Harmony. This is for my plan of build my own animation studio. BTW I came from Indonesia & thank you for all of your answer! |
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| DavidN |
My understanding is that one big difference between Mirage and ToonBoom is that Mirage is bitmap and ToonBoom products are vector-based . Does Harmony also allow drawing in bitmap ? I wonder because of a post on The Animation Guild Blog that mentioned Disney animators using Harmony to animate on the new 2-D Goofy short that Disney is making .
http://animationguildblog.blogspo...2006/12/animating-in-harmony.html It seems to me that ToonBoom Harmony was intentionally created to fit into a large studio production pipeline and is actually being used for production by companies such as Nelvana (and now, apparently Disney ) for their paperless workflows, whereas Mirage seems to mostly be used by individuals or small groups of animators . I'd be very interested to read of any medium to large production houses who have incorporated Mirage into their workflows. I haven't used ToonBoom Solo or Harmony enough to get a real handle on how they work in production. (I had a 30 day trial of ToonBoom Solo at one point , but was so busy with regular work at the time that I barely got to spend any time playing around with Solo) I enjoy the drawing tools in Mirage and/or TVPaint very much. To me , as a traditional pencil and paper animator , the drawing tools in TVPaint feel very "natural" . There's an animator named Shawn McInerney who posted recently about how he works using TVPaint for rough and then switching to ToonBoom to do clean up:
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| 2Dee |
Thank you David!
I have look at the site about TV Paint Animation, and even it is interested me more about the program. I've seen very useful feature in TVPaint, which is the same as i found in Harmony, Animation Disc. Does Mirage has the same feature? What do you think about TVPaint & Mirage? I'm really interested in Mirage, which is very cheap. But does Mirage have all of the option that an animator need? Mostly for the one who changing from traditional animation to digital? If TVPaint is better, maybe i'll change my choice. 
Thanks! |
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| DavidN |
I believe you are referring to the rotating canvas/work area , a "virtual animation disc" , where the drawing can actually be rotated on the screen . That feature is available in TVPaint, very similar to what is in Harmony. There is a workaround version of rotate canvas available for Mirage , but it is not as smooth as the one available in TVPaint. The attached image shows the TVPaint rotation feature . 
also see this image of the TVPaint workspace : http://www.tvpaint.com/images/pro...aintAnimation/Screenshots/LF1.jpg |
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| Nancy Beiman |
using a program incorrectlyI'm currently working on my second film in After Effects.I tried Mirage, but did not like the interface. Since I am reasonably familiar with AE, I'm using it for my latest hand drawn production. The advantages over FLASH are obvious: you can work in bmp or photoshop files for a painterly look (the film will look like animated pastels) and you have the 'parenting' command which allows you to joint animated figures like cutout puppets instead of moving all of the segments individually. This saves time, I can tell you. AE also has some marvellous 3D additions that really allow you to get some depth of field. I just saw a student film yesterday in AE that was in the style of the Michel Ocelot FAIRY TALES (which if you have not seen, get 'em). Nice work, done very quiickly with great effect except for the lack of flexibility in one element (which was not the fault of the program.) My own 'film' , if it turns out adequately, willl certainly be sent to the festival circuit later in the year. If not, it's an exercise in AE. The profs here tell me that no one has used AE in quite this way before, which cannot possibly be true; it remains to be seen if the film is any good or not. But I find AE very pleasant to tuse, unlike MAYA, which I loathe. |
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| 2Dee |
Hello Nancy,
Yeah, mostly here in Indonesia we used AE for processing 2D animation. It is a very simple, complete, and time saving. I just don't think if it is the right tool to use since we scan our drawings and paint them in photoshop first. Maybe i need one tool that can simplified all of these complex workflows in 2D traditional animation. That's all that I have been thinkin' all these years. An affordable software, not as expensive as Solo or Harmony 
Nice to meet you here anyway
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| Nancy Beiman |
If you're in animation production on series, AE is not the right tool for assembling the art--but obviously your bosses think that it's a good deal since it's an easy program to learn. I like the "Kilroy' button that hides levels.
Most programs are incomprehensible and are written only for computer programmers; a few, like Painter, Photoshop and AE, are written for artists. Good job. And pleased to meet you as well, or as Stan Laurel said, "Neither do I, too." |
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| Patrick McClure |
Anyone using Retas HD?
I spend most of my time in 3D (Max/Maya) but love to draw. Mr Whites book is an inspiration, but 'in betweening' suggests hefty workloads! I have been trying Mirage, which is as mentioned very reasonably priced. As so many programs, it lacks the 'talent on' button! Patrick McClure |
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| MarkBorok |
I use just about everything. Currently I'm working in Flash, but as soon as that project is finished (if it ever is), I'm switching to Toon Boom Studio. For rough animation I used to use Painter, but have just now got Mirage. Painter is great, but the animation features are extremely lacking. I use Lightwave for 3D when making complex backgrounds and animated objects. I sometimes use Poser to figure out a complex pose (if you know your basic anatomy, it's quite useful). I'm using Garageband to record audio. I also have used AfterEffects and Moho (currently Anime Studio). I love any program that's designed with artists in mind, and that includes Moho and Painter. Flash started out as an artist-oriented program, but quickly became a programming environment.
I've also played around with Manga Studio. That's another program that takes the artist's needs into consideration (i.e. it assumes that the user likes to draw, rather than digitally manipulate graphics). Unfortunately the interface is extremely arcane. |
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| Scuzzbopper |
Digital Steps for 'Nigel'This is a useful thread! I could use some advice from everyone on the digital compositing/coloring stages for my film 'Storytime with Nigel'.Up to this point, I have a big-ass stack of scenes all animated traditionally, full animation on paper. My pencil tests have slowly replaced the storyboard drawings in my Leica Reel which has been edited in Adobe Premiere. The next big step will be scanning all of the drawings, for which I'm planning to recruit students at VanArts for weekend shifts. I will be bribing them with free food and a credit on the film, since I don't really have a "budget" per se. I will likely have the images scanned at HD resolution so that they can be scaled down to 720x480 for DVD and still look good. Do you agree? For the digital ink & paint, and compositing with watercolor backgrounds, I've been torn between using ToonBoom's Opus or just Photoshop & After Effects. Both options have been suggested to me by equally reliable sources, so whatever the majority of you suggest I may end up going with. I'm only marginally familiar with both... so this is all grunt work which I am planning to farm out to students or colleagues willing to help, and just trying to direct it so that everything works the way I want it to. All of the camera moves are relatively simple, just pans and zooms, and many shots with no camera movement at all. The look I want to go for is XEROX-ERA DISNEY...films like Winnie the Pooh, Rescuers, Robin Hood, etc, where you can see all of the construction lines and sketchiness. I've done all of my clean-ups over top of my roughs, so inbetweens are more "clean" than the keys. I'm torn on whether I want to implement shadows or highlights into the drawings....I'm inclined to think NO...just flat color for less work and hassle. I want to get this thing in the can! There also needs to be an easy way to match the exposure sheets in terms of levels, drawings on ones, twos, etc. So any suggestions for which softwares will most closely retain the look of my drawings without 'vectorizing', and be the most effective for everything else? Thanks in advance. |
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| idragosani |
Re: Digital Steps for 'Nigel'
Have you looked also at Mirage or TV Paint? |
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| Scuzzbopper |
No I haven't looked into Mirage or TV Paint, but if they are recommended I would like to know more. | ||
| idragosani |
Look further back in this thread, you'll see some discussion about them (and ignore the legal issues twixt the two companies.) Both apps are designed with traditional 2D animators in mind. |
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